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Forum:New Editing Policies
Helloooo One Piece Wiki Editors! Recently, two of our admins along with various other editors discussed the recurring problem of users such as User:Mr._Whatever causing a ruckus and bypassing bans due to his creation of new accounts, as well as the excruciatingly long and overbearing length of the talk pages used to discuss images which usually result in either edit warring or no results whatsoever. As such, we decided in chat on a few different rules we could implement. Due to chat and its status as an unofficial discussion group area, I will be posting the rules we proposed in here for further and official discussion. Here is what we have: 1. A ladder-punishment system. Essentially, after an edit war, the user(s) responsible will receive a warning. If the edit warring continues, a 2-3 day ban will be issued. The ban periods will increase until they reach a year long ban, in which case a permaban will be implemented afterwards if necessary. 2. All images up for consideration (manga and anime) will be discussed and voted on in talks/forums. 2.1. If these discussions/polls are not resolved within 7 days, an admin will intervene. 2.2. If a resolution still has not been made after a day, the admin will make an automatic final decision, ending the discussion. 3. If a user continues to come back after repeated bans with different users and bypasses the IP address bans, a final ban will be implemented. 4. The word of the admins is law, meaning any unresolved discussion will be put to an end by the admin. Additional: 5. Any editors found to be sockpuppetting, we locate the IP range, and suggest a ranged ban. And that's all for now. Play nicely now, kiddies! 03:27, September 14, 2014 (UTC) Discussion I support the "ladder-punishment system" as I belive this can revole arguements and edit wars, even though not everyone will argee with the new way of doing things. 03:18, September 14, 2014 (UTC) I too agree. And suggestion: 5. Any editors found to be sockpuppetting, we locate the IP range, and suggest a ranged ban. 03:24, September 14, 2014 (UTC) I'll add suggestion 5 to the list then. 03:26, September 14, 2014 (UTC) Personally, I really like the idea of the ladder system. We really need to hammer home the point that this is not a lawless place where people can get away without punishment for clear-cut violations of edit war policy by talking out of it in a forum. About sockpuppets: Does this apply to all socks, or only to socks that have edited on the wiki. I know many people in chat like their sockpuppets as jokes. I don't necessarily support them or hate them, I just want clarification on this issue so we don't range block a few chat veterans. My opinion on images is a little different though. I think the current way we've been handling them should work fine in the future. It's really easy to tell when image discussions hit dead ends, and from there start a two-option, one week poll. (I've bypassed the test-poll phase for image polls when it's unnecessary and nobody's put up a fuss, so standardizing that would be cool) Usually that ends the debate with ease. Combine that with the rules we've proposed here on insta-banning for edit wars, and I think images will become a much less chaotic area of the wiki. Trust me, even though teams are defunct, as the image team leader, I've worked hard to take part in just about every image dispute for the last year or so. 03:35, September 14, 2014 (UTC) I have some issues.Lets say me(MoM) someone who is familiar with editting reverts several images with no valid reason and i get the warning. I could then escalate my action and for good measure lets say i upload pornographic images. instead of a larger ban i will recieve 2-3 days. If what i am saying is unclear let me summarize. Bans and such should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Sometimes you need to straight up permanently ban someone after the warning because their action is too unforgiveable . the ladder system can be easily exploited. Quite simply it's rather childish. it seems like such a third grade method. With the whole admin intervening thing... What would be the point of voting if Admins have the final say? it then becomes a matter of whoever can convince the admin. what if DP has one view and Yata has the opposite? Whichever Admin posts first gets the decision? " The word of the admins is law" What if the words of the admins contradicts and simply what if the admins are wrong? 3:37, September 14, 2014 (UTC) (Edit conflict) Only vandal/gone-bad sock-puppets. 03:38, September 14, 2014 (UTC) Can we also get a new rule about ban forums? While I don't wish to name names or get off topic in here, I do want to bring up something inspired by "recent events" that we should NOT talk about here. Also, to name one less-relevant name, I'm talking about OPN too. (no offense to him either, but he's banned already so, there's that) Anyways, I think that users who currently have an active ban forum should not be allowed to open ban forums themselves. It has happened a couple times before where users who have a ban forum open have opened forums for either users involved in their dispute or the user who opened their ban forum. It's generally been in poor taste (and usually poorly written in a rage) and they have never gotten off the ground, since the community just loads the second forum up with sarcastic responses. If more than one user has truly done something wrong, any user is welcome to open a forum for them, but people who have an active forum should not be allowed to open them. Users shouldn't have to worry about opening a ban forum from fear of retaliation from the person they nominate. 04:41, September 14, 2014 (UTC) What JSD said. And MoM, the admins only get the final say when the discussion is deadlocked or going nowhere. They're not going to jump in as soon as there's a slight difference of opinion and lock the page. only if the discussion has lasted a week or has regresed to insulting parentage. At least, that's how I understand it... 11:20, September 14, 2014 (UTC) 1) If thats the case Nova it should be specified on the list. 2) it does not stop the issue. so once the 7 days is over, people are going to be all over DP or Yata to try and win their vote? Or does the admins opinion matter more than lets say 10 people who don't share it? If its a deadlock keep extending it till its broken.even if it takes an eternity. I liked how you used " At least, that's how i understand it.." its very telling of these rules. 16:12, September 14, 2014 (UTC) I don't think banning IP ranges would accomplish much since it's easy to trick websites with proxies or TOR. 17:20, September 14, 2014 (UTC) MoM covered what I was going to say. There would be no point to voting if that's how we allowed the wiki to be run. SeaTerror (talk) 22:48, September 14, 2014 (UTC) Voting would still happen in reasonable debates. The admins would only get involved if the debates last too long and appear to be going nowhere. 23:44, September 14, 2014 (UTC) Bump. 00:28, September 18, 2014 (UTC) Right, we would extend the votes if it seems to take only a few more days to resolve. We admins will step in only as a (as you can call it) last resort. 01:45, September 18, 2014 (UTC) I think the admins should step in on smaller, lesser debates. If an issue affects more than one page, we should continue with polls as we've been doing. When we have talk pages that sit in the active discussions for weeks with only the user who started the edit war adding to the discussion, that's when we really need more guidance from admins. Polls on those types of issues are silly, since if people actually cared, they would have added to the discussion. And if an issue seems small, but there's been a lot of responses to the discussion, the admins should let it run its course as well. And about your concerns with the ladder issue, MoM, I think what we mean by the ladder system is users who continue to break the same rules. So if User A keeps getting into edit wars and not going to the talk page, they go up the ladder. But if User A starts suddenly uploading pron and actively vandalizing, of course they'll get a much longer ban and go right to the top of the ladder. And if User A and User B keep getting into edit wars with each other and avoiding the talk page, I think both should get the short ban. It shouldn't really matter "who started it" if both never go to the talk page. Short bans like that should really help us avoid creating users like Galaxy who are always in conflicts because they think they can never get in trouble for them. 14:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC) Bump. 04:06, October 1, 2014 (UTC) #1-Unsure about this;but whenever any edit war starts,lets just revert the part of the page alone BEFORE the war started and talk things out on the talk page #yeah :*I dont see how polls will be unresolved:/ :*dunno >_> #yeah,agreed. #yeah,unless they're joke socks... Alright, I think the best way to proceed with this forum is to actually do a similar thing that we did in the Manual of Style and blog rule forums: Divide it up into 1 new rule per section, and discuss them separately. So I'm going to divide them now. Just post on each section if you support it or not. 00:52, October 20, 2014 (UTC) Quick Bans So this section is about the rules for Admins having the right to ban veteran users without forums when they clearly break the rules. Admins can already ban new users/IPs without forums, but with Veteran users, to ban them without forums would just bring about protests claiming "Power abuse!" even if the editor clearly broke the rules (expect of course cases of clear vandalism). Of course, this should follow standard ban practices of an an Admin or other user warning them about the proper rules, an only banning after a subsequent violation. I would also say that these would start out as quite short and/or appropriately long based on the violation. Personally, I think it's just awful for us as a community to have to have a heated, long, and terrible forum discussion every few months when someone keeps image edit warring, only for the community to be worse off than before the edit war when it's all over. That kind of policy we have now just isn't good for the community, and is exactly how we end up with editors like Gal. 00:52, October 20, 2014 (UTC) First, cases of what? It's just a space. Second, I think admins deserve the right to ban whoever they want as long as it's in good reason, and people REALLY should learn this. For veteran users, if their edits are excessive, they deserve warnings. Maybe the forum can act as a warning. If they still do their thing without care, they get a ban. Maybe one week minimum. 05:11, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Can't deny that, I ban registered users the moment they start making obvious bull. Even veterans should immediately be banned, once it's clear they are making cracks at us. Of course, I mean once it's clear. 05:51, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Whoops, it's "cases of clear vandalism". Don't know how I left that out... But anyways, this isn't just about cases of clear vandalism, but cases of any clear violation of rules (rules they are definitely aware of). Like for example, if I continued to revert images that had been decided by poll or something, even after a warning, an admin should be able to ban me without a forum, even with my experience and time as a editor here. Long time editors need to be held to the same standard as new users and IPs. We have too many non-editors who would vote against just about any ban for ban forums to be an effective way to keep order in this community. 13:06, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Veteran editors should be treated the same as new editors and anons. Regardless of how long an user has been around, they should be hold to the same standards as everyone else, and be given the same punishment if they have clearly broken a rule. Simple as it. 20:38, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Agreed. No special treatments for old veterans simply because they make more contributions. 22:08, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Veteran editors should only be banned without a forum if it's clear vandalism. SeaTerror (talk) 01:57, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Obviously. 02:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC) I agree. Veteran editors should know the rules better than new and anonymous editors, so they should have expected the ban if they break any of the rules. They should be examples to newer editors. 01:35, October 23, 2014 (UTC) But Yata already said he agreed with me when I said it should only apply in cases of clear vandalism SeaTerror (talk) 01:56, October 23, 2014 (UTC) Well, I disagree with you and Yata then. Why should we need to make a forum when a veteran user clearly violates a rule? It almost always leads to a terrible argument where nobody wins in the long term. Why should we limit ourselves to "clear vandalism" when there are so many other rules that are more valid for quick bans, like abusive language, insulting behvaior, edit warring, etc.? Vandalism isn't the only problem for the wiki. Why do we even try to make all these rules if users can just escape any of them through a forum? There's enough admins now that if any of them truly make a bad decision around a ban, the others can correct it and make sure no power is abused. Especially if the ladder system below is passed. 04:04, October 23, 2014 (UTC) Ladder System for Bans This section is related to the last one, since I can't imagine this working without the last one passing. So I guess I'll make it a subsection. This is the same thing people described earlier in the forum where when admins ban people, the bans start short (few days) and get longer with each subsequent violation. Simple as that. 00:52, October 20, 2014 (UTC) I thought this was something we already did. I think real life does this, too. Repeat a crime after doing your time, they'll throw you in for longer at the turn of a dime. 05:11, October 21, 2014 (UTC) I agree with this system, and the strictness should be harsher each time by a good deal (like, first time is one week, second is one month, third is six months, fourth means perma-ban). 05:51, October 21, 2014 (UTC) I pretty much agree with what JSD and Yata said, although I'm certain we already have a somewhat laid-back unspoken rule-thingy about this? At the very least, we should definitely write this down in the rules or something. 20:38, October 21, 2014 (UTC) After we clear everything in this forum, we will add all the rules into the place. 22:08, October 21, 2014 (UTC) We already do this. I disagree with Yata that the bans should be that extreme. SeaTerror (talk) 01:57, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Hey, if we don't, we'd be encouraging an environment of lawlessness. Strictness is necessary to make sure the vandals learn their place. 02:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC) I also want to add that unless it's clear vandalism,we shouldn't ban users at all just because they're noobs trying to help the wikia but dont know/understand the rules yet(like somebody uploading a jpg can be banned infinity 10-20 min after getting a warning with the current rules).If that's how things worked 2-3 years ago,lots of currently regular users wouldda been banned forever.I say We should go easy on new users who dont know the rules yet. Yeah, agree with JSD and Yata. We need to harsher, but possibly make the fifth offense perma-ban, while the fourth could be a year instead. Roa, most of the vandals that I do come across do tend to add profanity to the pages, which is clear vandalism. We need to be bitter to them to set examples to other vandals. New users should be aware of the rules, as we have many warnings (ex. uploading an image), and possibly tend to be shy as they would be afraid of making an error. Older users would help them out, give them warnings, or advise. So this ladder system should work out fine. 01:22, October 23, 2014 (UTC) The ban length should differ. There's no reason why a person couldn't just be banned for two or three weeks on a different offense. SeaTerror (talk) 01:56, October 23, 2014 (UTC) Well, Roa, if this passes, nobody could actually be infintely banned for something as simple as a jpg mistake, since that would be completely avoiding the ladder. Something like that would need to be done multiple times in order to lead to a long ban. And of course warnings should be given before any bans (aside from vandalism, etc) are given. Though sometimes, there can be cases where longer bans are need, like cases of harrasment/stalking, etc. So I actually think that while most violations should start at 1 day ban, Admins should be able to step up the punishment if they deem the circumstances extreme enough. 04:04, October 23, 2014 (UTC) Stricter Edit War Rules I also think we need to change what we consider a violation of edit warring rules. We need to work towards making sure that editors are working to build communication with each other, not just reverting each other's edits without any explanation. We need to strengthen positive relationships between editors to become a better community and set good examples for the new editors we want to get in the future. We also need to limit the amount of times reverts (with explanations) can happen before the page needs to be left alone and discussion can happen elsewhere (user/article/file talk pages, forums, etc. Even chat if it's not disruptive). So I think in cases where someone reverts an edit with an explanation, and the other user reverts without an explanation should not be allowed. They should be considered the worst form of edit warring, since they are never done to resolve the situation. 00:52, October 20, 2014 (UTC) I've been thinking about how edit wars should go for months; ping-ponging on my own ideas. Of course the edit before the war should take precedence, and we know this, but the "limit" of how many edits are kind of hard to consider. In my opinion, the only edits that really "count" should have an explanation. In fact, maybe it's best if we require an explanation for any major reversion, unless it's obvious. After maybe...three reverts, leave it at the original edit and head to the talk page to sort things out. Dunno if this will help any, but it's what I feel right now. 05:05, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Yes, how about anyone who edit wars gets one warning to tell them they are edit warring, and after that, if they do it again within the same place at a close time since the first transgression we put a ban? 05:51, October 21, 2014 (UTC) The issue with edit wars is most people don't give reasons for it. SeaTerror (talk) 01:57, October 22, 2014 (UTC) All the more reason to warn then once, and then ban them for the second breach. 02:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Inactive Users and Voting I was thinking that we should also have a rule against inactive editors voting in polls. I've noticed several cases where inactive editors show up to vote in the poll and then go back to being inactive. A lot of the time, it seems like people are just showing up to support their friends and then just leaving again. 13:57, October 21, 2014 (UTC) :Exactly how can we define inactivity? I haven't been an active contributor to the wiki, in discussions, editing articles or blogging for a long time, yet I'm a frequenter of the chat, and am even a chat moderator. Would I still be eligible to vote or not, despite having not been an active contributor for such a long time? What about how long a person need to be inactive to be considered ineligible to vote? There is a lot of questions need to be answered this suggestion brings up, Vid. 20:33, October 21, 2014 (UTC) I do agree with Vid, about inactive people voting for polls, and I'd like to see something to prevent inactive people, who possibly have no idea the reasoning behind the poll, or any rule changes, etc. However, there is a lot of questions that need to be answered before we can consider making the suggestion into a rule. 20:33, October 21, 2014 (UTC) It's kind of hard to define. There are plenty of users who don't edit often but frequent the chat and this shouldn't apply to them. I meant inactive like OPN, who has 19 edits from the past year, several of which were just voting in the admin poll and leaving messages on peoples' talk pages. 20:42, October 21, 2014 (UTC) Inactive users don't matter. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them voting on polls. SeaTerror (talk) 01:57, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Can't deny that inactive users are rather not up to date, they don't understand what they are voting for at times. 02:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC) In the past, I've been on the side of allowing any user who has met the requirements to vote. However, the controversy surrounding the Admin election has caused me to question that belief. I'm toying with some new ideas right now, and here's what I've come up with: *Any restriction on voting based on activity should be limited to only election and ban polls. Those are the only polls we seems to have problems with inactive users returning. And combine this with the next point, and there's a lot more meaning to this. *How about we define "activity" through voting history? (Or perhaps discussion-based contributions, like forums, talks, etc?) If the idea of limiting voting is to make sure only users who care and follow the wiki can vote, the users who keep up with discussions and polls are obviously the one who do care. So in the end, I guess what I'm saying is what if we only allow users who voted on 3 of the 5 most recent polls to vote on ban forums/elections? We'd have to start tracking polls, but that would be an easy task after awhile. It's new concept, and likely needs tweaking, but to me it's an interesting idea to play around with. 02:37, October 22, 2014 (UTC) I'm not so sure about the second part. There are some active users, myself included, who don't always keep up with talk pages. Also, what if a regular user goes inactive for a while and then comes back? Maybe we could measure activity by edits, like defining active as having 10 non user page and user talk page edits in the month before the discussion starts. The number could be changed, but 10 doesn't seem like asking too much. I'm leaving out user talk page edits because some editors who don't contribute to the wiki itself still occasionally leave messages on their friends' talk pages. 03:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Like what ST said,I also find no problem with inactive users voting at all.Some might become active after the voting(most wont).If you're telling me that u want this rule because inactive users dont read any discussions and just vote for the options their friends voted,lots of active users do that too.The saddest part is we decide too many things with voting instead of discussions;(. The problem is that most of them don't become active. Like JSD said, voting in regular polls isn't an issue but look at how many inactive users showed up to vote in the two polls I linked above and then disappeared. Users who aren't really a part of the wiki shouldn't have a say in important issues like bans and admin elections. 15:10, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Doesn't matter. If you ban them from one type of polls then you would have to ban them from the rest. It isn't a big deal at all. SeaTerror (talk) 17:22, October 22, 2014 (UTC) I already explained why it's an issue in my previous post. And we wouldn't have to ban them from other polls, just ban polls and admin elections since those are the most important polls. 18:31, October 22, 2014 (UTC) And you're wrong. It just plain isn't an issue. The only voting rules we need are what we have now. SeaTerror (talk) 20:04, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Your position would have more force if you actually explained why I'm wrong and why it isn't an issue. Just saying "you're wrong" isn't helpful or productive. 22:28, October 22, 2014 (UTC) Sure this may be consider an issue, but it seems unjust. It will be similar to adding more requirements to the voting rules. It would narrow down the active users, but then we would realize that there don't seem to have as much voters as we desire. What if a user is considered an "inactive user" but actually stays up to date with the wiki? They just don't wish to edit, vote, or comment until an important issue arises. They should have the free will to be involved in bigger issues, if truly wish to get involved. Forcing them to get involved in smaller issues that really don't concern them is a bit too much. For example, making them vote in a forum which they are casually neutral. 01:05, October 23, 2014 (UTC) It isn't even an issue though. It doesn't happen as often as they make it seem like it does. SeaTerror (talk) 01:56, October 23, 2014 (UTC) Okay, let's say Mugiwara Franky comes back just to vote. You think he should? He's been gone for years now, he probably doesn't know how much we changed, who's doing what. 02:14, October 23, 2014 (UTC) Ideas for new rules If you have an idea for a new rule, post it on this section, and if a couple people think it's a good idea, we can move the related posts to a new section. 00:52, October 20, 2014 (UTC)